Comments on: I Have a Trading Education Dream http://www.rhodytrader.com/i-have-a-trading-education-dream/ The Musings of a Trading and Investing Addict Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:07:07 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: John http://www.rhodytrader.com/i-have-a-trading-education-dream/comment-page-1/#comment-421 John Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:06:43 +0000 http://www.rhodytrader.com/?p=459#comment-421 Marc - Since the things I mainly trade are individual stocks/options on a swing/position basis, S&P futures on a day-trade basis, and forex in multiple timeframes those markets and the strategies I employ are the focal points I have in mind - plus related and supporting things, of course. It will be easy for members to concentrate on only what they have an interest in without having to wade through unrelated subjects. This isn't to say that other strategies and markets are out of the question, it's just that others would have to lead those discussions if that's the way things are to play out. On the subject of commercialization, this will definitely be a for-pay membership program, but to your "pay it forward" point I've got some plans for putting the revenues to use in socially beneficial ways. I'm not strongly motivated by money, so the "trap of commercialism" isn't something to worry about. A price tag is necessary because people tend to take things they pay for more seriously than what they get for free, but providing value beyond that cost is important to me. Marc – Since the things I mainly trade are individual stocks/options on a swing/position basis, S&P futures on a day-trade basis, and forex in multiple timeframes those markets and the strategies I employ are the focal points I have in mind – plus related and supporting things, of course. It will be easy for members to concentrate on only what they have an interest in without having to wade through unrelated subjects. This isn’t to say that other strategies and markets are out of the question, it’s just that others would have to lead those discussions if that’s the way things are to play out.

On the subject of commercialization, this will definitely be a for-pay membership program, but to your “pay it forward” point I’ve got some plans for putting the revenues to use in socially beneficial ways. I’m not strongly motivated by money, so the “trap of commercialism” isn’t something to worry about. A price tag is necessary because people tend to take things they pay for more seriously than what they get for free, but providing value beyond that cost is important to me.

]]> By: Marc Leon http://www.rhodytrader.com/i-have-a-trading-education-dream/comment-page-1/#comment-419 Marc Leon Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:11:12 +0000 http://www.rhodytrader.com/?p=459#comment-419 It would be nice to learn about all those "other markets". However for beginners Forex is quite a big subject. It would be nice to expand horizons but, sincerely I think this could be a further expansion. If the idea behind the site is helping each other, progress together and try to make people reach profitability then I think there are a lot of people who may take some time and effort. I have seen, however lots of traders starting in good intention a website to help others ( sure you know some too ) and falling afterwards in the trap of commercialism. That said I agree with Jeremy. Teaching is a grateful experience. And for sure that some "innocent" questions get you on the road to be a better trader yourself. So, let's consider that helping people is in fact helping yourself. That said could we get this off the ground, without for the moment thinking about the money. The cost to run a webiste nowadays is quite low, and for the case there are always some ways to cover the costs. So first let's "pay forward" then things will fall slowly in place. Yes, I am avocating a site where people meet, where things aren't structured around a commercial idea and where it is possible to learn. There will always be people "just looking" but then after a while they will go back to all their chats and forums. Maybe I am thinking too much about personal satisfaction. Needless to say .... Count me in.... It would be nice to learn about all those “other markets”. However for beginners Forex is quite a big subject. It would be nice to expand horizons but, sincerely I think this could be a further expansion.
If the idea behind the site is helping each other, progress together and try to make people reach profitability then I think there are a lot of people who may take some time and effort.
I have seen, however lots of traders starting in good intention a website to help others ( sure you know some too ) and falling afterwards in the trap of commercialism.
That said I agree with Jeremy. Teaching is a grateful experience. And for sure that some “innocent” questions get you on the road to be a better trader yourself.
So, let’s consider that helping people is in fact helping yourself. That said could we get this off the ground, without for the moment thinking about the money. The cost to run a webiste nowadays is quite low, and for the case there are always some ways to cover the costs.
So first let’s “pay forward” then things will fall slowly in place. Yes, I am avocating a site where people meet, where things aren’t structured around a commercial idea and where it is possible to learn. There will always be people “just looking” but then after a while they will go back to all their chats and forums.
Maybe I am thinking too much about personal satisfaction.
Needless to say …. Count me in….

]]> By: Jeremy http://www.rhodytrader.com/i-have-a-trading-education-dream/comment-page-1/#comment-418 Jeremy Wed, 01 Jul 2009 03:18:04 +0000 http://www.rhodytrader.com/?p=459#comment-418 I agree John, "Nothing ventured, Nothing gained" ;) That said I am in. I would love to be part of teaching/mentoring traders....I know it makes you a better trader in the process. I trade futures...and a few ETF's. I also have quite a few ideas on how you should structure it and a line on some other very qualified traders who may be willing to contribute. I think you "interview" and pick a few traders from each background (stocks, ETF's, Forex, Options, Futures) to be the "head/leader" of that topic and just give them free access for their service. As I said I have many ideas on this subject, as I was going to start a similar site but just didn't have the time or, to be honest, the resources. If you are interested in anything I have said e-mail me back and we should talk. Hope to hear from you. Jeremy I agree John, “Nothing ventured, Nothing gained” ;)

That said I am in. I would love to be part of teaching/mentoring traders….I know it makes you a better trader in the process. I trade futures…and a few ETF’s. I also have quite a few ideas on how you should structure it and a line on some other very qualified traders who may be willing to contribute. I think you “interview” and pick a few traders from each background (stocks, ETF’s, Forex, Options, Futures) to be the “head/leader” of that topic and just give them free access for their service. As I said I have many ideas on this subject, as I was going to start a similar site but just didn’t have the time or, to be honest, the resources. If you are interested in anything I have said e-mail me back and we should talk.
Hope to hear from you.
Jeremy

]]> By: John http://www.rhodytrader.com/i-have-a-trading-education-dream/comment-page-1/#comment-417 John Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:53:13 +0000 http://www.rhodytrader.com/?p=459#comment-417 Larry - Your point is well taken, and I agree that in most cases contribution is something one does for non-external rewards. My thought is only to add something on to that which may incentivize a bit more participation than would otherwise have been the case. I'm certainly open to alternative ideas and will continue to give the whole matter a lot of thought. On the subject of the chat room, at this stage that looks like an unlikely part of the mix for the simple reason that I do have a full-time job and I'm thinking my employer wouldn't be too keen on my spending time not focused on my work - oh, and there could be SEC restrictions as well as I work for a Registered Investment Advisor. Even if permission were granted my ability to contribute to the discussion could be spotty because of my work duties. I don't want to make that kind of commitment and not be able to stick with it. Outside work, of course, is a whole other story. Larry – Your point is well taken, and I agree that in most cases contribution is something one does for non-external rewards. My thought is only to add something on to that which may incentivize a bit more participation than would otherwise have been the case. I’m certainly open to alternative ideas and will continue to give the whole matter a lot of thought.

On the subject of the chat room, at this stage that looks like an unlikely part of the mix for the simple reason that I do have a full-time job and I’m thinking my employer wouldn’t be too keen on my spending time not focused on my work – oh, and there could be SEC restrictions as well as I work for a Registered Investment Advisor. Even if permission were granted my ability to contribute to the discussion could be spotty because of my work duties. I don’t want to make that kind of commitment and not be able to stick with it. Outside work, of course, is a whole other story.

]]> By: Larry http://www.rhodytrader.com/i-have-a-trading-education-dream/comment-page-1/#comment-416 Larry Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:03:38 +0000 http://www.rhodytrader.com/?p=459#comment-416 I disagree with the concept of cash incentives. You will never be able to pay enough to interest anyone who is qualified and is not already interested in contributing for other reasons, so save your money. I think that the (only) reason people will contribute continuously is because they want to do so, for a variety of personal reasons. So do something that will provide those other reasons. It will have to be a range of benefits, to appeal to a range of personal motives. Take yourself for example. Are you in it for the money? If so, I suggest you focus on trading instead. If not, then why would a small extra award motivate others? In fact, just like "awards" in most industrial settings, the cash is actually de-motivating, because it is always awarded to some undeserving fool friend of the boss. In psychological terms, what you want are intrinsic motivators that last for an extended period, rather than extrinsic motivators (like cash) that quickly lose their value and appeal. Check out the psychological literature about how motivation works, and I think you will probably agree. Don't get me wrong. I am very positive on what you would like to accomplish. I just predict that cash can not make a difference unless you make it a full time job, and maybe not even then. If you (or a friend) has a funded ThinkOrSwim account, request entry permission from TOS customer support, and then check out the David Elliott chat room there. It is similar to a basic version of what you want to do, as I understand your wishes; and it works. However, it does not work without some internal tensions that you might notice (I would hope) after being around for a while there. BTW, David has been doing this with success for years now; first with Worden Brothers, and now with TOS. I disagree with the concept of cash incentives. You will never be able to pay enough to interest anyone who is qualified and is not already interested in contributing for other reasons, so save your money.

I think that the (only) reason people will contribute continuously is because they want to do so, for a variety of personal reasons. So do something that will provide those other reasons. It will have to be a range of benefits, to appeal to a range of personal motives.
Take yourself for example. Are you in it for the money? If so, I suggest you focus on trading instead. If not, then why would a small extra award motivate others?

In fact, just like “awards” in most industrial settings, the cash is actually de-motivating, because it is always awarded to some undeserving fool friend of the boss.

In psychological terms, what you want are intrinsic motivators that last for an extended period, rather than extrinsic motivators (like cash) that quickly lose their value and appeal. Check out the psychological literature about how motivation works, and I think you will probably agree.

Don’t get me wrong. I am very positive on what you would like to accomplish. I just predict that cash can not make a difference unless you make it a full time job, and maybe not even then.

If you (or a friend) has a funded ThinkOrSwim account, request entry permission from TOS customer support, and then check out the David Elliott chat room there. It is similar to a basic version of what you want to do, as I understand your wishes; and it works. However, it does not work without some internal tensions that you might notice (I would hope) after being around for a while there. BTW, David has been doing this with success for years now; first with Worden Brothers, and now with TOS.

]]> By: John http://www.rhodytrader.com/i-have-a-trading-education-dream/comment-page-1/#comment-414 John Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:36:38 +0000 http://www.rhodytrader.com/?p=459#comment-414 Marc - I agree with you 100%. It's a discussion I've been involved in many times. Yes, there's loads of free information out there, but that doesn't mean it's the best way to go. It's a question of value. I would argue that spending a bit of money to get the info I need from a source I feel I can rely on in a format that optimizes its usefulness to me is a much better way to go than to spend untold hours searching for free info which is scattershot and of dubious reliability. Information overload is a definite problem, which is why I want to keep things focused in specific areas related to the trading methods and techniques that I use. As soon as you start spreading out from your base of expertise you start degrading the value of what you're providing people. Marc – I agree with you 100%. It’s a discussion I’ve been involved in many times. Yes, there’s loads of free information out there, but that doesn’t mean it’s the best way to go. It’s a question of value. I would argue that spending a bit of money to get the info I need from a source I feel I can rely on in a format that optimizes its usefulness to me is a much better way to go than to spend untold hours searching for free info which is scattershot and of dubious reliability. Information overload is a definite problem, which is why I want to keep things focused in specific areas related to the trading methods and techniques that I use. As soon as you start spreading out from your base of expertise you start degrading the value of what you’re providing people.

]]> By: Marc Leon http://www.rhodytrader.com/i-have-a-trading-education-dream/comment-page-1/#comment-413 Marc Leon Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:46:30 +0000 http://www.rhodytrader.com/?p=459#comment-413 I agree with the fact that a teaching environment is a good learning situation. Some people I helped starting up are now taking up speed and that's a very valuable reward for me. The main problem I find always is over-information. Too many information streams of unknown quality. Too much haste to get rich (see Federico's comment). My thoughts are around how to inform a group of people, all different level, in a way that's valuable for all, or ... is there a need for separation in levels? Could there be a way to "include" in the sessions a kind of "secretary" which hands out notes or does a resume ( or a weekly talk ... you name it) so people can recap and go to the point Thanks for trying to create and ... I'd happily lend you a hand :) I agree with the fact that a teaching environment is a good learning situation. Some people I helped starting up are now taking up speed and that’s a very valuable reward for me.
The main problem I find always is over-information. Too many information streams of unknown quality. Too much haste to get rich (see Federico’s comment).
My thoughts are around how to inform a group of people, all different level, in a way that’s valuable for all, or … is there a need for separation in levels?
Could there be a way to “include” in the sessions a kind of “secretary” which hands out notes or does a resume ( or a weekly talk … you name it) so people can recap and go to the point
Thanks for trying to create and … I’d happily lend you a hand :)

]]> By: John http://www.rhodytrader.com/i-have-a-trading-education-dream/comment-page-1/#comment-412 John Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:57:35 +0000 http://www.rhodytrader.com/?p=459#comment-412 Lance - Thanks for the input. Scalping won't be part of what I focus on as it's not my thing, but that won't mean members can't talk about that sort of trading amongst themselves. I do like the member posting of charts/ideas, and that's part of what I have in mind in terms of my looking over their shoulder. As you've noted, it does mean some work on my part, but if it works out I'll develop some helpers to spread the workload. Lance – Thanks for the input. Scalping won’t be part of what I focus on as it’s not my thing, but that won’t mean members can’t talk about that sort of trading amongst themselves. I do like the member posting of charts/ideas, and that’s part of what I have in mind in terms of my looking over their shoulder. As you’ve noted, it does mean some work on my part, but if it works out I’ll develop some helpers to spread the workload.

]]> By: John http://www.rhodytrader.com/i-have-a-trading-education-dream/comment-page-1/#comment-411 John Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:54:29 +0000 http://www.rhodytrader.com/?p=459#comment-411 Federico - I mostly agree with what you've posted. My two points of disagreement are with #s 1 and 5. While frequency isn't the only decider of success, neither is the size of winners over losers. It's both together that determines performance. You can have winners come in at 10x the losers, but if you're losing 95% of the time you're not going to be profitable. As for the small number of winners defining success, that is only true of strategies (mainly trend trading approaches) which feature big, relatively infrequent winners. Other strategies have gains that are much more evenly sized by nature. Doesn't make either better, though. Federico – I mostly agree with what you’ve posted. My two points of disagreement are with #s 1 and 5. While frequency isn’t the only decider of success, neither is the size of winners over losers. It’s both together that determines performance. You can have winners come in at 10x the losers, but if you’re losing 95% of the time you’re not going to be profitable. As for the small number of winners defining success, that is only true of strategies (mainly trend trading approaches) which feature big, relatively infrequent winners. Other strategies have gains that are much more evenly sized by nature. Doesn’t make either better, though.

]]> By: John http://www.rhodytrader.com/i-have-a-trading-education-dream/comment-page-1/#comment-409 John Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:13:38 +0000 http://www.rhodytrader.com/?p=459#comment-409 Peter - SpikeTrade actually does look like it could be running along a similar line as what I have in mind. Thanks for pointing that out. Peter – SpikeTrade actually does look like it could be running along a similar line as what I have in mind. Thanks for pointing that out.

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